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Q & A
with Eric Coffin & Peter Grandich, December 2, 2009 |
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I recently had a chance
to talk to Eric Coffin,
who, along with his
brother David, produces
the HRA (Hard Rock
Analyst) Advisories.
Eric, Dave and I have
been friends for 15
years and we run into
each other several times
a year at conferences we
all speak at. I’ve
talked about some of the
companies we both follow
in the past few months
and wanted to get some
more information from
“the horse’s mouth.”
I’ve commented before
that I think the Coffins
produce some of the best
material out there on
exploration companies.
They have decades of
experience in the mining
business between them,
and David is one of
those rare guys in the
gold and resource
newsletter business who
can sit down with a map
and geology report and
actually understand
them. David logs
thousands of miles a
year travelling to
exploration projects for
a hands-on look. That
kind of background is
worth a lot and it shows
in the companies they
pick.
One thing that is
interesting about HRA is
that they are always
following a few
companies, some of them
big wins, that are not
getting covered by
anyone else (at least
when they start). I
like the fact that they
don’t just follow what
everyone is talking
about and they make
their own choices based
on their own
experience. I also
know these guys are 100%
straight up. They have
paying subscribers and
only select companies
they think their readers
will benefit from
knowing about.
A couple of short quotes
from the start of 2009
shows you that they were
telling their readers
the right things about
gold and metals even as
the markets were coming
apart.
Here’s one on gold:
“Gold’s
currency status will
continue to provide
support and the
potential for higher
prices going forward.”
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And one on other metals:
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“Base metal
companies have to be
viewed as long term
trades but the patient
and the brave should be
able to harvest large
profits next year on
good companies
accumulated near their
trading bottoms.” |
Keep in mind that both
of those quotes are from
January this year.
I twisted Eric’s arm a
little to get HRA to
offer a couple of
special items for
Grandich blog readers.
One is a package of
samples of recent issues
so you can see some of
what they follow and how
they cover it. The
Coffins also offered a
short term shot at
savings of $600-1000 on
their Alert service.
More on that near the
end of the interview.
Don’t Forget:
Eric is a keynote
presenter at the
Agoracom Online Gold and
Commodity Conference,
Dec. 3 – 4. You can
watch his presentation
and get a feel for HRA’s
views on the markets
right now.
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P: |
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It’s
been a crazy
year, with
markets and
commodities
taking huge
dives then
soaring to year
highs, and of
course all time
highs for gold.
Is this making
any sense to
you? |
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E: |
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Much of it we
expected, though
we are surprised
by the strength
of some the
moves and the
size of these
swings. Like
you, we saw a
bottom in March
and expected to
see good rallies
coming off of
it. We also
expected metals
to do well this
year. We’ve been
saying we’re in
a secular bull
market for
commodities for
years and that
belief seemed
validated when
base metal
inventories at
the London and
Shanghai
exchanges topped
out early this
year at about
one third the
levels they
reached in
2001-2002. That
was at the end
of a far milder
recession than
the one we are
going through
now. To us,
that was further
proof that the
metals markets
were tighter
than at any time
since the
1970’s, which
was the last
secular bull
market for
metals. Indeed,
we said in
January that we
expected the top
percentage
gainer of North
America markets
would be the TSX
Venture. I
think people
were looking for
a rubber room
for us back in
January on that
comment. |
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P: |
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But
this is a bear
market rally? |
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E: |
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That’s how we
are treating it
but I am not
losing sleep
over what to
call it. Even
if we’re in a
secular bear for
most G7 markets
that doesn’t
mean we have to
see lower lows.
Anything is
possible but
it’s not a
necessary
condition. I
think it’s just
as likely we
will put in an
intermediate
high then pull
back and bounce
around in a
narrower range,
maybe for an
extended
period. It’s
not uncommon to
go sideways in a
broad trading
range in a bear
market, for
years sometimes,
while company
earnings catch
up with the
valuations being
given to them by
the market. We
expect a pull
back since the
move has been so
large off the
bottom and
volumes across
many markets are
still light.
Clearly, there
are traders who
are not
convinced the
move will last.
Whether those
people
capitulate and
buy or wait for
a large pull
back remains to
be seen but, at
this point, I
think they will
wait. It
increasingly
feels like the
US particularly
is in a funk
that will not
pass soon.
Unless the
inventory cycle
generates some
jobs in Q4 and
Q1 2010 to cheer
people up and
invigorate what
Keynes use to
call the
nation’s “animal
spirits” the US
economy is in
for a hard slow
climb out of
recession. I do
expect gains
from inventory
re-stocking but
unless companies
are comfortable
to start
re-hiring people
it will be tough
to sustain. |
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P: |
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But
that doesn’t
mean just stay
out of the
markets? |
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E: |
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Well, not for
us. If this is a
“normal” secular
bear market and
we chose to stay
completely out
we would be
twiddling our
thumbs for
another nine
years which
could get a bit
tedious. I know
there are perma-bears
telling everyone
to stay away
from equities
but if you are a
trader you
should certainly
be able to play
a rally as large
as this one, but
you have to be
sensible about
it. In a bear
market you have
to take money
off the table on
good trades.
When the market
does pull back
it’s safer to
wait for the
market to show
you a bottom
before buying in
again. In bull
markets people
always worry
about being too
late but in bear
markets it can
be just as
dangerous to be
too early. No,
it’s not a risk
free proposition
to do it, but
you can always
buy Treasuries
and get a 0.01%
yield if that is
where your
comfort level
is. It’s a
matter of
finding value
and taking
profits when the
market offers
them or
accepting you
might have to
wait out a large
dip in the
markets on some
holdings. If
you are taking
some money off
the table when
you get a good
price move you
can bring your
average costs
down enough to
be more
comfortable if
you do have to
sit on a
position for a
while.
You can make the
augment that
what we are
seeing is “just
a bubble” but
when “risk free”
rates are
sitting at or
near zero that
is going to
benefit other
asset classes,
including
equities. Zero
interest money
is an incredibly
powerful
stimulus, even
for economies as
battered as the
G7 debtor
economies are.
The broader
market is
definitely ahead
of earnings
right now, but a
chunk of this
rally is about
P/E expansion
due to those
falling interest
rates. As long
as traders
believe rates
will stay down
they are willing
to live with
that P/E
expansion, even
if the “E” part
is pretty slow
in coming. Of
course, the
converse of this
argument is that
when rates
do start
to climb that
market will
start giving
that back. We
don’t see most
of the G7
central banks to
lift rates any
time soon, but
sometimes the
bond market
makes the
decision for
them. We have
told readers for
months to keep
an eye on things
like the TNX or
ten year bond
yield index. If
that starts to
climb rapidly
the market could
get nasty again
fast. It’s not
happening yet
and yields have
continued to
fall but we
don’t want
people to be too
complacent.
On the subject
of bear markets,
one important
distinction
should be made.
While we think
the consensus
about a secular
bear in most
large North
American and
European
exchanges is
right, I don’t
see one on the
exchanges of
countries like
China, India,
Brazil and a
number of other
high growth
and/or resource
rich countries.
Even Canada’s
TSX index, which
tends to follow
the S&P around
like a lost
puppy, doesn’t
look like it
meets the
conditions of a
secular bear.
The 2008 high
and 2009 low for
the TSX were
about 30% higher
than the 2000
high and 2002
low,
respectively.
I’m not saying
it won’t get
clobbered during
a down leg in
New York but
it’s important
to make these
distinctions.
Most of the
countries that
provide the
demand that
drives the
resource market
are in far
better economic
shape than the
US and Europe.
They will
increasingly
tread their own
path in the
world economy.
If you trade
resource stocks
and are going to
wait for strong
sustained growth
in the US and
Europe you will
be waiting too
long. In this
secular
commodity bull,
it is developing
countries
pulling the
train, not the
G7. |
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P: |
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Does
that mean full
steam ahead for
all metals then? |
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E: |
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Longer term yes,
for most of
them, but for
the short term
we have gotten
cautious about
base metals.
After peaking
and then falling
earlier this
year, base metal
inventories are
climbing again
and are at or
above the spring
peaks. Even so,
the prices of
most metals have
held up very
well and are
very close to or
at 52 week
highs.
Obviously, the
trade against
the Dollar is
helping to
levitate them
and we would be
foolish not to
be concerned
about that. At
some point we
will get a
correction.
We’re quite
interested to
see how the
warehouse
inventories
react to the
situation if
there is a large
price drop. We
suspect some of
those
inventories go
away as sellers
decide the price
is too low to
have the metal
on offer. In
that situation
the base metal
markets would
start to firm up
as they did
earlier this
year. Medium
and longer term
we think the
underlying
demand and tight
supply are real
and these issues
will again
dominate the
markets. We
sold a couple of
long term copper
stories off the
HRA list earlier
this year,
particularly
First Quantum
(FM-T) which was
a 4000% percent
gainer for us.
We’re looking at
new base metal
stories but I
don’t think we
would introduce
them, except
perhaps to our
premium Special
Delivery list,
until we see a
pullback in
copper prices.
We recently
added a nickel
story at the SD
level I can’t
name that is up
about 60% but
that was a
special
situation. For
the time being
we will continue
to stick with
gold stories. |
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P: |
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Obviously, the
gold market is
red hot. How
have you played
that? |
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E: |
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Early this year
we decided
precious metals
were likely to
go a lot higher.
Given the
extreme measures
the US and other
countries were
taking to
forestall
financial
disaster we were
comfortable that
the Dollar would
turn around and
head lower
again. We
thought that
gold had done a
good job of
protecting
portfolios and
that would not
be lost on
investors. We
have a number of
producers and
near producers
on the list that
we either
followed from
the exploration
stage or that
took over HRA
list companies
so we were
comfortable
readers had
choices there.
We added a group
of explorers
that had either
the potential
for outsized
asset growth in
the form of new
discoveries or
the financial
strength and
management to
bring in
projects that
fit that bill
quickly,
preferably both.
I’ll give you a
couple of
examples. The
first addition
we made was at
the market’s
nadir in March,
a company called
East Asia
Minerals (EAS-V).
We were
extremely
impressed with
their Miwah
project that we
thought had
obvious multi
million ounce
potential. They
had enough cash
to start
drilling and had
given
shareholders a
good win already
in the form of a
$1.30 dividend
so we didn’t
perceive
financing as an
issue. EAS has
been drilling
for four months
now and the
results have
been excellent.
They did a
financing at 51
cents at the
start of the
drill program
and that
combined with
warrant and
option exercise
has the treasury
fuller now than
it was when
drilling
started. They
are adding a
second drill and
results are
matching the
geological model
that we think
gives the
project 5-10
million ounce
potential. It’s
up
500%
but we think
there is plenty
of upside still
both for the
project and the
stock.
The second stock
we added is one
we know you are
fond of too,
Evolving Gold (EVG-V)
which is working
on a gold
discovery in
Wyoming and may
have another one
in Nevada. We
liked the look
of the phase one
results at the
Rattlesnake
Hills project
last fall, but
of course no one
cared then with
the world coming
to an end. We
were impressed
by the results
of the first
drill phase and
by the fact the
company had
raised money at
much higher
prices. Their
treasury would
be more than
enough to handle
even a very
large
exploration
program with
plenty to
spare. We
wanted to see an
outline of this
year’s drill
program before
adding it, which
we did in May at
35 cents. The
first hole of
this year’s
program was even
better than we
hoped and the
stock was soon
trading above
$1.80. It came
back below $1.00
before
strengthening
again since many
traders were
just hoping for
a repeat of that
first hole. EVG
has released a
number of good
holes, many of
them with bulk
tonnage grades,
not the high
grades that got
people excited
in the summer.
This is what we
told our readers
to expect.
This play,
pardon the pun,
is still
evolving and the
company is
working out the
overall
mineralized
system and
controls on the
gold grades as
they go. From
what we have
seen, the system
has not been cut
off so there is
room to keep
growing it.
There are still
lots of
questions to be
answered about
things like gold
recoveries and
whether open pit
or underground
or both are the
way to go but it
continues to
look like a
large robust
system. There
are still plenty
of drill holes
coming and our
readers are
up about
250%
even after the
pull back so
we’re not
complaining. |
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P: |
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Gold
has had has a
pretty big
move. Is it
time to get
defensive there
too? |
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E: |
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Any time a
market goes one
way for a long
time you have to
start thinking
defensively.
Even a secular
bull market will
have some big
dips. Anyone
who has followed
gold for more
than a few
months doesn’t
need reminding
of that. There
have been
several
substantial
pullbacks on the
way up over the
last few years
and I don’t
doubt there will
be more before
it’s done. We
recognize how
big a factor the
US Dollar and
the low interest
rate environment
has been in
recent moves.
The US Dollar
may bounce at
some point and
its likely gold
will pull back
when that
happens. But
the overall move
which is now
eight years old
is a secular one
and the drivers
are the same as
for a number of
other
commodities. We
consider the US
Dollar decline
an “end of
empire” type
phenomenon and
it could run for
some time yet.
We don’t know if
it sees a fall
as large as the
65% drop that
afflicted the UK
Pound but more
downside is
certainly
reasonable. The
simple truth is
that the US is
having no
trouble selling
debt. It’s
impressive how
low the yields
are and how high
the coverage
ratios are still
at US debt
auctions. As
long as that
continues why
would the US
want to defend
its currency?
There is a lot
of hand ringing
about it in
political
circles but when
the world will
lend you money
at less than
one percent and
currency drops
don’t impact
prices much
because you have
(for now at
least) the
world’s pricing
unit, why would
you mess with
that? In
addition to the
“anti Dollar”
trade there has
been a clear
broadening of
appeal for gold
in the past few
months. It
recently saw new
highs in several
other
currencies. We
don’t consider
ourselves gold
bugs but the
appeal of an
asset class that
is not someone
else’s liability
is pretty
compelling after
what the world
has been through
in the past two
years. While we
expect pull
backs we think
the support
levels are much
higher now. |
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P: |
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You’re still
looking at other
new companies to
add to the HRA
list too? |
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E: |
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Yes, we recently
added a couple
of more
companies to the
HRA portfolio.
Both were added
when we thought
there would be a
quiet period
between results
that would allow
readers to
accumulate
them. One of
them just
started
reporting again
and doubled in
price based on
that
reporting. I
won’t name it
here but we like
what we are
seeing. If your
readers want to
know more about
it we are
providing a set
of samples to
them that will
include some of
the initial
coverage of that
company and
updates from our
Special Delivery
Alert Service
(click
here for more
info).
We are
tracking a
number of gold
explorers right
now and will be
adding some of
them through the
SD service when
we think the
time and the
price is right.
Year end is
coming there may
be some profit
taking before or
after that which
might bring some
other companies
to price levels
we would find
interesting. As
long as we think
the precious
metals markets
will be strong
enough for good
results to be
rewarded we will
be on the
lookout for new
stories for our
readers. We have
found that
explorers with
the right
management and
projects are
delivering big
gains when new
results are
favourable so we
have several of
those on the
watch list. |
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P: |
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Tell
us about the HRA
newsletters. |
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E: |
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There are three
levels. The
basic is the HRA
Journal, a
monthly
newsletter we’ve
been publishing
since 1995.
Some of the
longer editorial
content and the
extended
coverage of
companies we
follow appear
there, along
with updates on
companies
already on the
HRA list. The
Dispatch is a
mid month
publication that
has a bit more
editorial and
more frequent
updates of
companies we
follow. The
premium service
is the Special
Delivery Alert
service. There
is no schedule
for those of
course since
they are event
driven. The SD
is where we
usually initiate
coverage on new
companies. Many
of the Alerts
will update
companies we
already follow
based on
breaking news
like new
exploration
results.
Evolving Gold is
one good example
of that.
Readers knew
about it already
due to the
extended review
in the May
Journal, but
Alert
subscribers got
an update as
soon as the
first hole of
this year’s
program came
out. That
allowed us to
lift it to
“strong buy”
based on those
results while
the stock was
still halted at
$0.45. As it
happens, that
Alert also had
an update of
another company
we know you
like,
Nevsun (NSU-T)
which
announced a debt
deal for Bisha
at about the
same time. Both
of those stocks
have of course
seen very strong
up trends since
then. EVG’s
price increased
by 300% in a
couple of weeks
and Nevsun
quickly moved
from the $1.30
level through
$3.00 on the TSX
and hasn’t
looked back.
There were
similar well
timed Alerts on
East Asia when
it started
reporting from
its current
program. The
latest Alert was
on that recent
pick that just
doubled. We had
an alert out in
the morning they
released the
first set of
drill results
while it was
still moving
higher. |
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P: |
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So
the Alert
service is more
geared to
trading? |
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E: |
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Yes, though we
also use it to
update companies
if the news is
significant even
if we don’t
necessarily
expect a big
price move one
way or the other
and to comment
on general
events in the
market. Since
there are
usually a number
of companies
that are only
followed at
Alert level it’s
the only update
source for
those. One
other important
aspect of the SD
service is the
“trip reports”
that David
writes. As you
know, Dave
spends a lot of
time flying
around looking
at projects.
Most of these
are not added to
the HRA list, at
least not right
away. David
does include
details on that
trip in the SD
however, even if
they are not
companies
formally
followed by
HRA. This gives
our Alert
readers a chance
to get Dave’s
thoughts and
insights on
various plays
and areas he has
visited that
they might be
interested in
themselves.
Readers
appreciate those
reports, though
most people who
sign up for it
want it for
breaking news on
companies we
follow or the
first access to
new companies we
add to the list. |
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P: |
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I
understand that
HRA has a
special offer
for Grandich
followers only.
Can
you tell us
about this?
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E: |
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Yes we do. We call
it our
“Friends of
Peter”
sale. It’s available
on the Special Delivery
Alert service. First
off we are offing your
readers a package of
recent HRA coverage from
the Journal and the
Special Delivery so that
they can see some of
what we’ve been talking
about and why. They
can go to the special
page we set up for your
readers at
http://www.hraadvisory.com/grandich.html
to access the report.
In addition, we are
offering your readers
savings of 30% on the SD
Alert service, Please
note though that this is
a very time limited
offer. Its
only good for 5 days
and can only be accessed
through the page we set
up for your readers.
You won’t find it
anywhere else.
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P: |
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Thanks Eric |
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E: |
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Thank you Peter!
See you soon.
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